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RE: DRIVEL: A suggestion

Diane de Rooy wrote:

> First of all, for those of you who don't know (since I did not hit "Reply
> All" in a post to Scott Wagner), I signed off the list a coupla days ago. I
> do not have the time to deal with pissy, snotty, aloof people with delusions
> of grandeur and a piling-on mentality, nor the desire.


> Most people on the list do not match the description I gave above. They are
> kind, helpful, understanding, and private. Rather than making an effort to
> put one publicly "in her place" for asking questions, they kindly
> backchannel with real suggestions that HELP.

Are you not cutting off your nose to spite your face then?

> The others seem to be enjoying a joke at the expense of a person who
> sincerely asks for help, and unfortunately, it seems to be human nature to
> find responding to self-aggrandizing jerks almost irresistible.

Sorry, I must have missed the "sincere ask for help" - was that in the form of a
long-promised list?

> Just because one person has an endless honeymoon going on with Frame doesn't
> mean the same software isn't a Blind Date from Hell for someone else.

Nor does it mean that there are only two categories of users. As one concerned more
with the programming side than the interface, I'm quite happy with Frame. I know
people have their problems with it, but I don't necessarily share those problems,
so might be more forgiving than those hitting the same walls every day.

> To
> respond to queries with, "Gee, I've used Frame for a billion years and I've
> never had a problem with it; you must be stupid..." is NOT helpful.

I certainly wouldn't condone that, and I doubt if many would. I certainly didn't
see that stated on either of the lists.

> There's
> not a piece of software in the world that hasn't given someone trouble. And
> Frame is far from perfect--FAR from perfect. Way far. It's like using flint
> and tinder to make fire instead of a match, and in addition to that, it does
> inexplicable things, including NOT obeying standard commands.

I know, you keep saying that, but we're still waiting for the list. Nobody can help
you if you don't ask for it. The proof is in the pudding - if you want to silence
your critics, then do so with irrefutable issues, not rhetoric.

> Neither the
> books nor online help offer any specific suggestions to help. The Help
> documents don't even list problems users encounter. It's as if Adobe is
> consciously denying Frame can't do something by omitting the cure for the
> problem from its index of Help Topics.

As much as no software company wants to see their dirty laundry hung out for all to
see, I don't believe that they'd go to such lengths. Again, ask here - this is
another resource. If you don't ask, you haven't investigated all solutions, so
shouldn't be so hasty to make such assertions.

> The mailing list is an enormous waste of time for me because those few
> people who wish to humiliate the non-convert do so ON THE LIST. Public
> insults, unless one is Gandhi, generally elicit a public defense or an
> effort at an equally nasty insult.

Without question. I have recently been guily of exactly the same response.

> And, yes, contrary to what your mother
> wants you to think, it DOES matter "who" started it.

For the answer to this one, you'll need to go to the smallest room in the house and
look above the sink. You blew in like a hurricane - I spent my time publically and
privately trying to ensure that you got a fair hearing nonetheless. I would be much
less likely to do so again if I suspected that I may eventually just be another
victim of a "hit and run" mailer.

I'm assuming you plan to continue membership with this list - is that the case?

> Probably worst of all is this sense I get of suppression and censorship.
> What right does one listmember have to tell another one to shut up, keep it
> to herself, quit whining, suggest a person who complains should be banned
> from a list? What an UGLY concept. In certain Third World countries, I'm
> told this is commonly used to silence dissent. Apparently, it works.

If you do plan to stay, it would be only fair to warn you that this list
(deservedly or not) proclaims to support a greater level of freedom than the other,
so I wouldn't expect any kid-glove treatment here either. In fact, based on that
philosophy, I suppose you could probably expect even harsher treatment here.

> This little microcosm here doesn't amount to a hill of beans in the entire
> world. 2,000 people discussing software isn't going to make the short list
> for the Nobel Prize. It would be better for the TRULY whiney, intolerant
> listmembers who are finger-pointing to remember that three of their fingers
> are pointing directly back at them while they're identifying the "problem"
> people on the list.

... or the problem with the people on the list...

> But the bottom line for me is, I simply don't want to be associated with a
> list where people are banned for complaining, even if heatedly, while the
> smug, obedient, INSENSITIVE, fascistic minority sets the standard for
> behavior.

Seriously Diane, that sounds like something that would come out of a garrisoned
cabin in Montana. As you point out, it's not that important - why take it so

> You may forward this to the list if you wish.

I don't really think that anyone could see too much value in that.

> I have nothing further to say
> or share here, although I'd be happy to receive kind, helpful letters from
> people who have struggled and triumphed...

I assume this relates to the other list - I wouldn't hold my breath for voluntary
kind, helpful letters from that front. I'm afraid you may have done your dash.

> or from people who believe the onus
> is on Adobe to make SIMPLE changes that will make its software more
> user-friendly and powerful.

What changes do you want?


Marcus Carr                      email:  mrc@allette.com.au
Allette Systems (Australia)      www:    http://www.allette.com.au
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
       - Einstein

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