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Re: Don't Let the Rat Pack Get You Down

Jeremy H. Griffith wrote:

> No, Marcus, *you* are not being truthful here.  Tha only "accusation" was
> in a *private* post from Dan to Brad, which Brad, in violation of all Net
> rules, made public.  Brad in fact never gave *any* reason for suspending
> Dan, an act certainly *not* within his rights as list admin of a public list
> that long preceded his reign.  IMHO, Dan is correct about the reason.

I don't want to face off with you over this Jeremy, but I do find it interesting that you
believe Dan's explanation to be correct even though you assert that Brad didn't provide a
reason. What is that based on?

> >> You should know that there is a rat pack of 10-15 Adobe aplogists who
> >> respond like trained seals to critical posting like yours. Their purpose is
> >> to intimidate you. Don't let them succeed.
> >
> >See, the funny thing is that Diane and the rest of the list have come to terms with
> >a way forward. Your ego prevents you from doing likewise - you seem to crave
> >confrontation and aren't interested in anything but kicking Adobe and anyone else
> >who disagrees with you. Diane will get answers from the other list, because she was
> >willing to meet the rest of the participants halfway.
> This crosses the line regarding personal attacks on the list, Marcus.  You
> have violated Netiquette yourself in a major way right here.  Dan did not.

Surely you don't doubt that Dan was referring to me? Is my sin that I didn't phrase my
personal attack obliquely enough? I prefer to call a spade a spade than engage in fancy
doublespeak. Rereading Dan's and my paragraphs, I believe that you are in the minority of
people who would believe that Dan was hard done by my comments.

> > There is no conspiracy - some people just don't agree with you.
> No-one spoke of a conspiracy.

Dan wrote "Many of us joined because we were fed up with the mismanagement of the
FrameUsers list, particularly the way the list owner attempts to suppress the free
exchange of ideas (the rat pack being one method)." To me, that sounds like talk of

> >I'm getting tired of your games, Dan. You can say and think what you like of me, but
> >your fabrication of the facts damages both the credibility of this list and your own
> >personal standing. Ultimately, I could see you as the only list member of
> >Dan@Dan.com, though I doubt if you'd get on with the owner.
> This is a lie.  Dan has *never* fabricated a single fact.  His interpretations
> of motives may be different from yours, but he is certainly as entitled to
> them as you are.

I see, Dan is allowed to have an "interpretation of motives", but I'm a liar. Why do I
not feel entitled to entertain my version?

> As list admin here, I must insist that you rise to the level
> of honesty and civility required on the Net at large, a level Dan has always
> achieved.  I have asked others to look to the future rather than dwell on the
> past, and I ask you to do so too.  Thank you for your cooperation.

a)  A level that Dan has always achieved? You must be kidding!

b)  I'm not dwelling on the past - Dan raised this. In fact on the other list, I
explicitly mentioned that I wasn't providing details because I didn't want to inflame the

c)  As list admin, there is a perception that you should be impartial. I for one don't
believe that you're currently achieving this goal, though I always have in the past.
Isn't it ironic that you started "Free Framers" to escape what you felt was an unfair
list admin, only to be accused of the same thing?

> I would prefer any further discussion on this thread to take place privately,
> off list, as it seems to have nothing to offer the group as a whole.  Thanks.

Well then you should have posted to me privately. You can't expect to call me a liar in a
public forum and not provide me right of reply.


Marcus Carr                      email:  mrc@allette.com.au
Allette Systems (Australia)      www:    http://www.allette.com.au
"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
       - Einstein

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