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RE: Figure numbering out of sequence with floating anchored frame s

At 09:17 AM 11/27/01 +1100, Esmond Pitt wrote:
>You can't have it both ways. Either you are using floating frames & floating
>tables, in which case we agree, or you aren't, in which case the trouble with
>non-floating tables and frames is that they don't float.

Okay, non-floating frames flow rather than float, but either way they move 
to the top of the next page. When floating is turned on, two additional 
things happen:

1. The anchoring paragraph (or possibly a portion of it if it contains 
text) stays on the preceding page.

2. Text that appeared below the anchored frame before the float action 
occurred may up-float to the preceding page, in which case it appears 
between the anchored frame and its anchoring paragraph.

>This proposition is a
>logical tautology. Calling it "absolutely wrong" is merely absurd.

The phrase "you are absolutely wrong" was in direct reply to the statement 
below, which appeared in Esmond Pitt's 11/19 email on this thread:

>The problem with Dan Emory's scheme of explicit anchor paragraphs is that 
>you are forced to make the page-breaking  decisions yourself.....

I said you were wrong because you stated that the problem with my scheme 
"of explicit anchor paragraphs is that you are forced to make the 
page-breaking decisions yourself." That is false. Page-breaking decisions 
for anchored frames are completely independent of using "explicit anchor 
paragraphs." They occur automatically, with or without floating turned on, 
based on whether the vertical height of the anchored frame exceeds the 
available empty space on the current page.

Below , you quote from my earlier post:

> > There is no way to "lose" the Float function for a table, because there 
> is no
> > thing as an Anchoring Position of At Insertion Point for tables.
>Now *this* is absolutely wrong. There are five ways to lose the float 
>for a table, and one way to float it. You are very confused on this point.
>'Flow' is what text does; 'float' is what frames & tables *can do* if 
>otherwise they flow too. Tables float if and only if their Start: is set to
>Float; anchored frames float if and only if the Floating checkbox is visible
>and selected.

Unlike an anchored frame, none of the Start options for a table changes the 
anchoring position. Tables are always anchored Below Current Line, 
regardless of whether that position leaves the anchoring paragraph behind 
on a previous page.
Obviously what I meant was you cannot permanently "lose" the float function 
for a table. You always have the option to change the Start option to any 
of the other available choices, unlike when you select At Insertion Point 
for an anchored frame. Once you choose that option for an anchored frame, 
you "lose the float function" (your phrase not mine, I was just trying to 
interpret it as I thought you and Fred Ridder were interpreting it) until 
and unless you change to a different type of anchoring position, at which 
point (for some options) you can turn Float on or off.

>but most of us would consider that empty
>bottoms of pages are at least as bad a spacing problem as what you're 
>trying to fix, and fixing *that* lands you with your convoluted
>3-steps-per-affected-frame cut&paste post-process. Taken together, they
>strongly suggest that you're on the wrong track. Wasted page depth is a 
>problem in itself; having to do automatic processes manually to fix it is 

Is it any more convoluted than the procedure I outlined (you cite step 3 
above from that procedure) for dealing with filling up a column or page 
when the anchored frame (and its anchoring paragraph) flows to the top of 
the next page is far less onerous than trying to standardize the white 
space gap above/below the graphic by fiddling with the graphic's vertical 
position and the anchored frame's vertical height every time the anchored 
frame floats or unfloats.

By using an anchoring position of At Insertion Point, the empty anchoring 
paragraph always stays with the anchored frame no matter how it moves, and 
always establishes the white space gap above/below the anchored frame. 
Also, the Figure Title below the anchored frame always stays in that 
position because anchored frames are not allowed to float, which may cause 
paragraphs (like Figure Title) below the anchored frame to up-float to a 
position above it.

My method also absolutely prevents what often happens when an anchoring 
position of Below Current Line is used. Namely, some idiot other than the 
original author deletes the anchor symbol while deleting text in the 
anchoring paragraph, or types additional text after the anchor symbol in 
the anchoring paragraph, or deletes an empty anchoring paragraph because 
s(he) is unaware that the anchored  frame is anchored to that paragraph.

>There is no perfect solution. Otherwise we'd all be using it and there 
>would be no discussion. Obviously we will have our own preferences and 
>priorities among the various imperfect solutions which exist.

There is no perfect solution to anything in the real world. What one should 
do, therefore, is assess the advantages and disadvantages of each available 
option, and choose the option with the fewest negative consequences. I have 
recited several times now the advantages of the method I advocate, as well 
as the disadvantages of the one you advocate.

My method solves all the disadvantages of your method, and has several more 
advantages besides. The only advantage of your method is that text 
automatically floats up from below the anchored frame to fill the column or 
page preceding a page containing a floated anchored frame. And, of course, 
the Figure Title paragraph, the first paragraph below the anchored frame, 
is always the first one to upfloat, which is a serious problem..

Standardization of the white space above/below tables is an important 
feature that is implemented by the Table Designer. But there is no such 
built-in counterpart of that feature for anchored frames. The only viable 
way to implement that feature for anchored frames is with the method I 
advocate. The alternative to my method is to create those white space gaps 
within the anchored frame, which increases the frames vertical height, 
making it even more susceptible to floating.

So, Esmond, using your method, how do you deal with the following issues:

1. Do you just ignore the need for white space gaps above/below the 
graphic, and shrink the anchored frame to the size of the graphic?

2. If you try to create the above/below graphic white space gaps within the 
anchored frame, do you attempt to precisely make those gaps consistent 
(within say plus or minus 2 points) for all graphics, and if so, what 
procedure do you follow to achieve that? Also, what do you do about the 
situation when the anchored frame floats to the top of a page, which 
eliminates the need for the white space gap above the graphic? Similarly, 
what do you do when the anchored frame gets pushed down so it is the last 
thing on the page, and the white space gap below the graphic is no longer 

3. If you don't create the white space gaps within the anchored frame, do 
you create them outside of it? If so, explain your method, including what 
you do when text up-floats to the preceding page between the anchored frame 
and the anchoring paragraph, in which case the anchoring paragraph can no 
longer establish the white space gap below the graphic, which is now on the 
next page.

4. How do you assure that a Figure Title paragraph always appears below the 
anchored frame, and is always kept on the same page as the anchored frame?
In particular, explain how you deal with the case where Floating is turned 
on, the anchored frame floats to the top of a page, and the Figure Title 
paragraph up-floats to fill the preceding column or page, and thus it now 
appears below the anchoring paragraph on the preceding page. Isn't that why 
you are forced to put the Figure Title paragraph into a text frame that is 
below the graphic and inside the anchored frame, because that's the only 
way you can assure that the Figure Title stays in the right place? And, if 
you will look again at the title of this thread in the subject line above, 
wouldn't you agree that your solution cannot solve this problem, hence it 
is not relevant to this thread?

| Nullius in Verba |
Dan Emory, Dan Emory & Associates
FrameMaker/FrameMaker+SGML Document Design & Database Publishing
Voice/Fax: 949-722-8971 E-Mail: danemory@primenet.com
177 Riverside Ave., STE F, #1151, Newport Beach, CA 92663
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