Re: Database Publishing Suggestions

[David Evans <devans@xxxxxxxx>]

Dan,

I am not going to slam Unimerge, I believe it has market value just as
PatternStream. Both have their place.
This is not an indictment of Unimerge's capabilities, but rather a response
to your suggestion of knowledge where you have not played --
PatternStream's capabilities.  I have gone where I typically don't, I have
added my response -- don't think that I will continue to play.  I am glad
that you can serve your customers within the framework of data dumps.  We
found it confining and not very flexible.  Our client's suggests the same
-- many are converts. PatternStream is a timely application, uniquely
positioned, that permits corporations to take full advantage of their
database information in a cost effective way.

Please find my comments embedded below...
 

At 08:46 AM 2/3/99 -0700, you wrote:
>At 06:22 AM 2/3/99 -0500, David Evans of Finite Matter, the developer of
>PatternStream wrote:
>>Dan, Dan, Dan,
>>----------------------Snip
>>I do respect your knowledge of database publishing issues, however, to
>>suggest that Unimerge is faster and better than PatternStream without ever
>>reviewing the PatternStream product demonstrates pure speculation on your
>>part.
>*******************************************************************
>Typically, I'm getting performance with UniMerge on a 266 MHZ CPU of 5000
>records per minute. These are complex records having upwards of 40-60
>fields, some with very long text strings. How about you volunteering some
>actual performance data on PatternStream so we can benchmark it against
>UniMerge?

########################################################################
Is "5000 records per minute" like the obscure Internet thing called "page
hits"-- what is your definition of a record?  And don't you just import
ASCII (meta-tagged) information -- remember that is what you do, NOT
database publishing. Please don't portray tagged ASCII import as database
publishing. Based on that definition, any information coming out of a
database can be construed as database publishing. The definition really is
"tagged publishing", similar to that of HTML. 

Now to be fair, please tell us the whole story.  Are you not required to
run a database process to get an ASCII data dump? And aren't you required
to paint those pretty little meta-tags around that data. And finally,
import that data into Frame (Oh, by the way, many use the same thing for
Quark, PageMaker, and Ventura. And how about RTF, it to is a meta language)
Isn't that the process? 

When talking of publishing speeds, we prefer to talk about pages per
minute.  An extremely large Telecom (the largest commercial Frame user) has
run as many as 72 pages per minute. But I do NOT want to mislead you,
complexity drives the speed at which you can publish information.  When
PatternStream is running or using:

Stored procedures 
Nested queries 
multiple cell straddles (PatternStream driven)
multiple master page selection (database/PatternStream driven)
multiple table selection and placement (database/PatternStream driven)
dynamic table generation (column and row creation based on data criteria)
automated graphic and picture resizing/placement (database driven)
Order by statements
Conditional statements (where a value needs to trigger a different response
i.e., a straddle, based on a  condition)
Textual transforms (change this letter/hexcode to something other than itself)
Index and Cross Reference marker input (for automated indexing)

it can slow down...to 5-6 pages per minute.  But we are talking about
complex products -- not a "mailing list" -- real stuff.  

For example, placing a three column text flow (frame) in a two column page,
inserting the database values and having the first two columns straddle,
depending on database values, and then re-sizing the text frame so that it
removes white space all on the fly - takes some processor power.
PatternStream and FrameMaker (the formatting engine) slow, but the results
make it worth it, especially when you're publishing a 1300+ page catalog
that is selling a product.

I'm surprised that you hold a mailing list out as your comparison -- have
you seen MS Word?  They use something called mail merge.
#########################################################################

>***************************************************************************
>"I guess it depends on what your definition of IS, is."  The only
>>thing that YOU can say unconditionally is that Unimerge is cheaper out of
>>the box. When comparing YOUR cost (development time included) -- is
>>Unimerge really cheaper?  (I guess that is an unfair question since you
>>haven't taken the time to understand PatternStream's capabilities.)
>************************************************************************
>I do not believe PatternStream cuts development costs, particularly for the
>"high-end publishing" which you claim is the product's forte. 
###########################################################################
"I do not believe"?  That is what I am saying -- you don't know!  
Nor are you willing to investigate new technology. Not so long ago, many
thought
the World flat, but thank God venturous people were willing to investigate it.

Our customers don't believe it either - they experience it - decrease in
costs and an increase in efficiency and accuracy.
###########################################################################

>With UniMerge, I can put together an application for a simple mailing
list-type publishing
>effort and test it with test records containing instantiations of all the
>variabilities in record content in about 30 minutes. 
###########################################################################
Fortunately, mailing lists are not our market. However, 30 minutes seems fair
for PatternStream also. The only difference is that we are publishing --
not testing
-- against the real database.  Understand one of the advantages of
PatternStream is
that you see what you are getting, if you don't like it, change it (in
under minute).  
And I can prove it :)
###########################################################################

>But such simple applications provides no meaningful information about
capability. In a
>real-world application of some complexity, the development time is consumed
>primarily by an analysis of the customer's requirements, the content of the
>database, all the possible variations among records, and exception handling.
>Test cases must be developed for all of these issues. Then, there are all
>the issues involved in FrameMaker template design, which typically requires
>the development of more test cases. Then, a skeleton application of some
>sort must be developed to run against those test cases and analyze the
>results. After that, there is usually a back-and-forth process that goes on
>with the customer (sending samples and getting comments back) to perfect
>everything and get all the formatting and page layout issues resolved. As
>any programmer will tell you, no software product can automate this process.
###########################################################################
WHOOPS -- should of used PatternStream.   I do agree that requirements and
poor
data structure can slow one down, but test cases and a skeleton applications?
Those sound as if the belong in a laboratory.  With PatternStream, you 
publish pages -- don't like it, fix it (again, under a minute), re-publish!
###########################################################################

>The actual final coding step is a minor part of the total programming
>effort. The same applies to high-end database publishing. I challenge you to
>prove to me that PatternStream provides any way to short-cut the development
>process described above.
###########################################################################
I will place out on the FML web site pages of a book that just came off press.
These pages are for everyone to view.  You tell me how long to set it up. 
The database is clean - normalized.  Then I will tell you how long 
using PatternStream. (For a clue it has a 2 in the answer)
###########################################################################

>>To be clear, PatternStream will out perform any meta-tagged based system --
>>bar none. To claim expertise in a particular field, you must be
>>knowledgeable of all products and willing to try new things. I would
>>suggest that if you want to compare PatternStream to other products, try it
>>first -- contact us.
>***************************************************************
>Hmmm. Does that mean I have to be an expert in Microsoft Weird, WordPerfect,
>PageMaker, and Quark to know that FrameMaker is a better solution for
>iondustrial-strength database publishing?
>***********************************************************************
###########################################################################
Yep!  At least a good understand of their strengths and weakness if they claim
to do database publishing and your are going to pass judgement. I am
pleased that 
you've acknowledge that you haven't tried PatternStream, yet able to
provide comparisons. 

Dan, it's OK to say "I haven't used it". I don't know the advantages of a
"live" connection,
I've only dealt in ASCII dumps -- something that has been forced upon the
industry.
###########################################################################

>>Admittedly, PatternStream is for high-end publishing -- things that
>>Unimerge could not begin to tackle.
>********************************************************************
>And what kind of "high-end publishing" are you talking about that UniMerge
>can't tackle? Give me some examples. I can give you ample examples of
>extremely difficult high-end publishing I've done with UniMerge, and I
>suspect that some of those would be problematic with PatternStream. 
###########################################################################
Their you go again, "suspect", you don't know!

Let's trade - see the example listed above - the one with the dynamic
three column text flow. Can you easily do that?

Give us one - or ten to do.  

###########################################################################

>The fact is, in my 5 years of database publishing experience, I've never
encountered
>an application that couldn't be cracked with UniMerge. 
###########################################################################
Please read the list in the first section.  So your application of choice can
run against stored procedures?  And your application can resize images on
the fly?
And you application can create dynamic table structures and on and on.

Please understand that PatternStream can even run columns within columns.  
By placing an anchored frame within a column, we can database publish
within that
anchored frame, directing the data to that specific place and then apply
balancing 
techniques.  You must have a "live" connection to do that.
###########################################################################

>Maybe, after PatternStream has been around for 5 years, your claims can be
validated.
###########################################################################
Wrong Answer! I can claim it now. That is why Seybold choose PatternStream
-- see, they took the time to investigate it.
###########################################################################
>********************************************************************* 
>>And be assured, PatternStream can
>>compete everywhere, from the simple to the very complex. Please understand
>>that FML is very familiar with meta-tagged systems too, and why
>>PatternStream was developed. With so many competing code based systems, how
>>can you recommend one over another -- they all do the same thing, the same
>>way, they just change the language used (meta-tags) a little bit.
>********************************************************************

>Have you, personally, ever used UniMerge to develop a high-end application?
>If not, how can you possibly know what you're talking about. 
###########################################################################
Excuse me! I have offered no comparison -- you did. I am only telling you
that a "live" connection can do many more things than a database dump.  
###########################################################################

>The UniMerge command language has about 15 commands, but it's incredibly
powerful. 
>Many people (me included) much prefer to work with a concrete syntax
rather than
>trying to do the same thing through a GUI whose underlying language base is
>hidden from the developer. When you substitue a GUI for the concrete syntax
>of a command language, you just complicate things, because the developer is
>never precisely certain of what the outcome will be, and will waste many
>hours puzzling over each discrepant behavior, and trying to figure out how
>to trick the GUI into producing the desired behavior.
###########################################################################
Your choice! And with 15 commands, I can understand that things don't get 
complicated. Our customers demand more of an application.
###########################################################################

>********************************************************************* 
>>To us, Seybold's selection as "Hot Product" makes the statement (and they
>>clearly understand what is available in the market). PatternStream doesn't
>>force anyone into a particular format -- PatternStream can do it all. Most
>>of our customers have tried the meta-tagged stuff, they are converts --
>>they understand the significance of a "LIVE" connection between the
>>database and the formatting engine.
>*******************************************************************
>UniMerge has a live connction capability too. But in 5 years of database
>publishing experience, neither I nor my customers have ever found a
>compelling reason for using it. That being the case, the question for you is
>this:
>Can PatternStream handle the more common cases where a live connection is
>not only not needed, it is absolutely out of the question? UniMerge can.
###########################################################################
Yes, it can, but I can't think of a case that it is "absolutely out of the
question",
except that it is not in a database or it doesn't belong in a database or
is not relational information.  And yes, we can access ASCII, PDF and HTML
files too.
###########################################################################


>I recall a product called BrioPublish which used a GUI and a live database
>connection that would appear to be similar to PatternStream's. 
###########################################################################
Yes, I have heard of Brio -- never used it though. I can tell you that
others who have,
and have taken the time to look at PatternStream, have stated -- "no
comparison."
###########################################################################

>It took me less than two days of evaluation to determine that the product
was useless.
>That opinion was confirmed when the product disappeared less than a year
>later. The BrioPublish "solution" simply didn't work in the real world of
>database publishing. 
>********************************************************************
>     ____________________
>     | Nullius in Verba |
>     ********************
>Dan Emory, Dan Emory & Associates
>FrameMaker/FrameMaker+SGML Document Design & Database Publishing
>Voice/Fax: 949-722-8971 E-Mail: danemory@primenet.com
>10044 Adams Ave. #208, Huntington Beach, CA 92646
>
>

"publish in minutes...Not days."

Finite Matters Ltd.
David V. Evans
703-807-2108 Voice
888-766-1087 Pager
mailto:devans@cmyk.com

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